Politics of the Imus fallout
Apr 13, 2007 Americana, Medialites
Good analysis from Classical Values, via Insty. Imus does still have the Holocaust denial vote, though — of course I refer to Patrick Buchanan, formerly relevant public figure who was dug up by Imus as a token “conservative” opponent of the Iraq war and who kvetches (I doubt he would appreciate the word), “The hypocrisy here was too thick to cut with a chainsaw.” Well, he’s not wrong about that, as he is about much else; but I do want briefly to address the hypocrisy point.
The fulcrum of the hypocrisy argument does not center properly on the “well, rappers say it too” argument. It is not the same when Imus, McGuirk or another pasty-face says it in a public context. I believe, and I have said before that “it’s different for blacks.” Thus while it’s a problem that rappers and other black “urban” characters use the language that Imus did on a daily basis or more, it’s a black problem.
In this time and place, Don Imus is dead when he makes himself a black problem — and while I think it’s foolish to ignore the overall content of a man’s editorial presentation, which you have to do in order to conclude that Imus is truly a racist (he’s not in any meaningful way), Imus went up to the line as part of his job and stepped over it. He gambled and, this time, he lost.
It’s not the same when those words are used on the streets of black America — it’s a different issue, a different gamble, different stakes.
UPDATE: Obama disagrees with me. Or does he?
If it’s not good for Don Imus, I don’t know why it’s good for us. If we don’t like other people to degrade us, why are we degrading ourselves?” Obama asked.
Yes, they’re both wrong — it’s not good for “us” either. But degrading oneself is not the same as degrading someone else.
MORE: Interesting angle on The Reverand Al and rap lyrics.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
You are ABSOULTELY right.
The fight over the use of these words in the hip hop culture has absolutely NOTHING to do with Don Imus’ stupid, racist, sexist and hateful comments. NOTHING.
They are separte issues which should be (and are being) fought over in separate battles.
The “well they say it, too” argument obscures the real issue here with Don Imus. He was wrong. There is no defense.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
That reminds me of an old story.
Two thugs come out of a bar and one sees another guy who he is sure was probably involved in the killing of his brother.
“Follow me,” he tells the other one.
So they both head down a dark street and when they are sure nobody is looking rush the third guy and beat him to the ground. When the guy tries to get up the first thug shoots him in the head and kills him.
The second thug says, “Hey, how come I didn’t get to kill him?”
“Did you have a beef with him? Did he kill your brother?”
“No.”
“Well then, if you would have done it then it would have been murder, plain as day, but since I did it, it’s my right. See the difference?”
“No,” says the second thug. So the first thug shoots him in the face too.
“Well, now you do.”
Which just goes to prove that context means everything.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
This makes no sense. The objection to the words are that they belittle these women… that they hurt them, damage their self-esteem, cause actual damage to them.
How do such words, coming from blacks, damage them less?
April 13th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Ron,
This is one area where I must respectfully disagree. It dosn’t matter the skin color. It doesn’t matter the race. It’s just plain indefensible. Period.
Should we say it’s different for blacks because that’s their culture? Well, it’s not the culture I remember Dr. King speaking of. It’s not the culture of any truly succesful Black man OR woman.
I see it as no different than, say, some fellow telling another to stop beating his wife, and the other man saying, “what’s it to you? She’s MY wife?”
Either the civil rights folks of the 60’s were right, and America is a land where black and white work together towards a common good, or the thugs are right, and the many sacrifices of Birmingham, et al, were just a waste of time and effort.
Respects,
April 13th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
One way we know it’s different for blacks is that blacks think so.
Am I only the liberal here?
April 13th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I dunno, but anyone, regardless of color, who agrees with you is by definition just as racist. You just can’t explain “it’s different for them” any other way.
April 13th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
I don’t believe I have any prerogative to say what blacks “should” be offended by. I have said more than you suggest though; perhaps people don’t bother to read hyperlinked text — here was the essence of my argument at Dean’s World on a slightly different issue:
Now, how does this apply here? Simply that what whites say about blacks and what blacks say about blacks, much less what blacks say about whites, can differ even if the words are the same. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend they can’t, I think.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Saying the two things are not equal is not suggesting that one is “right” while the other is wrong.
It’s not a good thing that hip hop culture relies on misogynistic or violent lyrics in much of their music. It’s bad for society as a whole.
However… the fight against that is a very different fight than the one being waged against Imus’ stupid, racist, sexist, hateful comments.
To roll them into one battle takes the focus of where it should be. That other fight will be fought.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
The important thing to remember is that when you do wrong at least do it for the right motives.
It just makes it more authentic that way.
April 13th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
It reminds me of an argument I had with a German about Jews. He contended that Jews could never be more loyal to the US than to Israel. I said “How very de Fuhrer of you” and he threw a fit. After he calmed down he explained that it wasn’t their fault, that because of the Holocaust Jews couldn’t be expected to be loyal to any country besides Israel. His anti-semitism wasn’t anti-semitism at all because he didn’t think there was something genetically wrong with Jews, it was just how they were because of history.
He honestly believed this.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
I understand your argument, Ron. I just find it appallingly racist. “I don’t believe I have any prerogative to say what blacks ’should’ be offended by.” Why not? Because they’re sooooo different from you? How? Because this country is so inherently racist, you can’t possibly know what it’s like to be black in America? Is it so different that you can’t say what’s right and what’s wrong any longer?
Your suppositions seem to be based on the idea that there’s something so mind-blowingly different about being black in 2007 that we absolutely MUST perpetuate our racial classification of people, and treat people differently based on those classifications. I’m saying that 40 years ago, King prayed for the day when it wouldn’t matter anymore. When exactly did we change course to say that we have to abandon King’s Dream to save it? And how did we arrive at this point by saying we must segregate instead of integrate? Did all of this come about because the rise of a black middle class erased much of the rationale that there were two Americas, or despite that?
With the odd exception of a “man bites dog situation” that arises from time to time, white people are not by and large subject to intimidation, as a group, by black people.
I suppose you’ve never heard the term “white flight” then?
I don’t know how old you are, but anyone over 40 (like me) can say that during our lifetimes, there were parts of this country where blacks were not treated like human beings.
I know you weren’t talking to me here, but for the record, I’m 38, and I grew up just outside New York City. I recall quite a few times during my lifetime when some people (Jews and Koreans especially, but also a hell of a lot of black people) weren’t treated like human beings inside that city. And too much of the time, the people inflicting their racism on those people were other blacks. (And one’s name was Al Sharpton.) Liberals like you, rather than having compassion for the victims, and demanding justice and a return to King’s Dream, kept telling us, “Be understanding. We can’t possibly know what it’s like to be black in America today.”
Is there racism in America? Yes, there is. And it needs to be called out onto the carpet, the light of day must be shined on it, and we must speak plainly that it must not be tolerated. That needs to be the case for the remains of the Klan, but also for the Black Panthers. It needs to be said if you’re a white guy blaming all the problems of the inner city on black drug dealers, or if you’re a black guy saying it’s really Jewish diamond merchants. And it really needs to be said when you’re someone who thinks black people *need* a separate culture from and different values than white people, because it’s just never going to be possible for whites and blacks to get past the color of everyone’s skin.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
You know, for a Black Republican, you’re not half-bad.
“Because they’re sooooo different from you? How? Because this country is so inherently racist, you can’t possibly know what it’s like to be black in America? Is it so different that you can’t say what’s right and what’s wrong any longer?”
My wife is black so I know what it’s like to be black in America. It’s kinda like being Mexican in Anchorage. You stand out against the landscape in the winter-time, but then again, it’s cold enough that nobody much cares anymore.
But more seriously she is very, very different from me. But I think that probably has more to do with the fact that she’s female, and I’ll be darned if I got that one figured out yet. But keep me in your prayers anyhow. One of us might get lucky.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
We’re all different from one another, Jack. I just happen to think that skin color tends not to mean so much in the grand scheme of things as most people think. We share much more than what separates us. We all have similar hopes and dreams, fears and expectations. It’s the particulars of the possible combinations that make us different, and that’s all in the head and the heart.
“Any man who judges by the group is a peawit.”
April 14th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Hi, I’m back. Did I miss anything?
April 15th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Ron, you quoted yourself: ‘With the odd exception of a “man bites dog situation” that arises from time to time, white people are not by and large subject to intimidation, as a group, by black people.’
In this country, a black person walking around in any mostly-white area in the country has to fear nothing worse than an occasional stare. A white person walking around in many mostly-black areas has to fear having the shit kicked out of him for the crime of being white (as I know from personal experience). Black-on-white crime is far more prevalent than white-on-black crime. White people in the workplace or on campus have to walk on tip toe around black people to avoid any comment that the black people might take offense at, for fear of mandatory “sensitivity training” or even getting kicked out or fired. Black people can offend anyone they want without consequences. White people in politics and the media have to worry about offending black people (as Imus demonstrates), while black people in the media and politics can get away with any kind of racist bile (as Sharpton demonstrates).
The idea that it is still black people who are the intimidated race in this country is just laughable.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Doc, that is a nice — but a little — point. Physical intimidation, you are correct, is not by and large something black people have much to worry about. By and large, mind you. There have been painful and notorious exceptions to this rule.
But I don’t agree with the your main point. Who would rather be in the position black people are in this country compared to white people?
April 16th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
In many neighborhoods, minority people are physically intimidating each other.